Dear Active Atheist


Dear Mr and Mrs Atheist:

I have been told that you cannot believe there is a God.  The word “cannot” is not possibly true.  For when it comes to what people want, they seem to find a lot of “can”.

But let’s put initiative behind us, shall we?

I understand that the thrust of active atheism, is to rid the earth of the foolishness of believing there is a God.  Let’s all agree there’s a whole lot of believin going on right now.  So you have a whole lot of work to do in a very short time.

But I write this to take a look at the uselessness of active atheism. 

If an atheist lives to be 90, he may infect a few with what he calls common sense or reality.  But those few he infects may or may not become common cohorts in the man’s cause.  In fact, according to statistics of human behavior, anyone who joins a group is very unlikely to strive toward leadership or active involvement.  By whatever means, they were compelled simply to join.

Let’s assume he converts three or four in his life.  What has he really accomplished?  More than likely the enthusiasm of his converts will fade away.  They will likely go get jobs and raise a family.  I would bet they won’t even remember the man’s name who converted them.  So what has the active atheist accomplished?

Well maybe he tore down the faith of a few religious people.  But its not possible for him to make much of a dent in the religions of the world.  So what has he really accomplished?

Perhaps he’s made a name for himself in the annals of exemplary atheists.  We both know there is no Hall of Fame sporting such a sign out front.

He can say he did it for the good of humanity.  But I’ve already established he’s done virtually nothing.  But in his mind, he is important.

Does anyone know the name of the man who lived 1.2 miles west of Podunk Egypt during the reign of King Ramses the second?  You might know the road I’m talking about; the road that Pestle Smitak lived on.

Perhaps that’s too distant a time.

Does anyone know the name of the family who lived six houses down from Charles Schwab in 1987?  What is the name of the examiner who tested you when you got your driver’s license?  Do you really think you will gain popularity when you are dead?

My aim here is not to insult you.  I’m not trying to make fun of you.  I’m only trying to plant a seed of doubt in your foolish mind.  Just like a seed that falls between the cracks in the sidewalk: no one saw it fall and no one remembers it until the grass sprouts up.  What I’m busily doing to you, active atheist, is the very same thing you do to people who have hope in their faith.

The visible difference here is that I offer you eternal life in Christ Jesus.  The only thing you have to offer is a hopeless useless existence and then,  “Poof“!  You die and fade away.  Christ is very willing to extend eternal life and notoriety to you right now!

By His Grace

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77 thoughts on “Dear Active Atheist

  1. As an atheist, I am quite content with the one life I have. Especially as I am lucky enough to live in a time and place where scientific achievements (especially in medicine and public health) give me a life that’s mostly pain-free and peaceful. And when that life is done, I’m quite happy to fade away and leave space for future generations. The fact that my existence is finite doesn’t distress me. It feels like the natural order of things to me, and its finite-ness (that may not be an actual word) motivates me to make the most of it.

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  2. How should I possibly perceive your comment? I am one who feasts at a delicious and endless banquet of prosperity everyday. I put a sign on my lawn to which you tacked a note. What possible response should I give?

    Wouldn’t it be reasonable, since I have so much, that I should invite you to come and eat with me? It would certainly not be reasonable for me to leave this bountiful place. What good could possibly come of that?

    But to see a beggar sitting on my step, horribly infested with sores and dejected at the thought of every breath. That his greatest ambition is to die that he may leave room on the step for another. How pathetic that you are so close and yet so eternally distant from joy.

    To shed tears over you is a useless and selfish action. You don’t need tears, you have plenty stored up that you have not yet cried. But to go out on the step and sit with you. Yes, this would be appropriate.

    Will you still despise the healthy one who comes to bear you gifts? Would you truly love your horrific plight more than the offer of one who has so much? I surmise the answer. But it is not right to judge without asking. Freedom of choice is a command given to every man. I cannot take that away from you. But it is no pleasure to watch your back as you leave.

    I guess we have to ask: which is better? Contentment with oblivion, or a positive response to an offer of hope? The former is astounding, but it must remain your choice. At least the offer has been presented and remains extended for now.

    You have made your choice up to today by the things you have come to understand. But what if there is an understanding that is more firm and true than what you have been taught and learned? Entertain it for a moment, please. What if I am right?

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  3. Pingback: May dog help us | Random thoughts

    • Audacity? Yep, sure got that. Did you expect me to cower like a victim? The weak one cowers. The strong just go and do it. The weak one boasts of his strength. The strong one knows, hot air won’t get it done. The weak one rallies a riot. The strong aren’t afraid to stand alone. Audacity? Yep, got that.

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  4. “The visible difference here is that I offer you eternal life in Christ Jesus. The only thing you have to offer is a hopeless useless existence and then, “Poof“! You die and fade away. Christ is very willing to extend eternal life and notoriety to you right now!”
    Most religions make such offers, and like yours, they don’t have any evidence that this “offer” is true. What is it that makes you doubt that the true religion is Islam or Shinto, or Judaism etc? Is it that they have no evidence for their claims? Then you might understand why I do not believe you. You try to make the argument that if one doesn’t change the world all at once and quickly, why try? That’s the same argument that has been made to try to silence those who want change, a desperate attempt to tell someone to sit down and shut up and accept the status quo. That nonsense has always failed.

    Alas for you, your claim that my life is ” a hopeless, useless existence” is untrue. You depend upon telling a deliberate falsehood to try to scare people into believing your religion and to make yourself feel superior to others. I have a very good life, and have helped many. That’s all I need to content me, to know that I actually helped people; I am not so shallow to think I need the lauds of the ages. I find it much more satisfying than a baseless claim of a magical afterlife. Especially an afterlife that the various sects of Christianity can’t agree on how to get to. Is it predestination? Free choice? Works? Faith?

    I would be happy to look at any evidence for your claims you might have. You claim an endless banquet. Many theists of different faith claims this. Why should I believe you and not them when you have no evidence just like them? Why should I believe any of you when you offer hope but nothing else? Hope is worthless if what one hopes in doesn’t exist. You claim you bring gifts. Where are they? All I see are empty hands, just like the hands of your fellow theists whom you say are wrong.

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    • Curiously enough you people have no way of proving there is no God. The majority of humanity is sensible enough to find sufficient proof that God exists. You are the alien race on the planet of logic. And you scream with great boldness that you seem to know it all. You are simply rebellious children craving for anything different. It doesn’t matter to you if it’s useless and abhorrent. No I have absolutely no respect for your thoughts whatsoever.

      If I owned one of your thoughts I would hate myself. I would consider myself a useless idiot and go hide in a cave some place until I could rid myself of that singular stupid thought. But you take pride in owning an entire family of stupidity. The Lord is perfectly correct. There is no reasoning with a young fool.

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      • It’s not so curious since it is quite easy to show that there is no god as the bible and Christians define your god. It’s also a point to mention Is that you seem to be admitting that you have no evidence for your god at all and have to trot out the “but but you have no evidence that this god exists” excuse. Then we can use that reasoning to show that every god exists then, the Muslim’s Allah, the Wicca’s Goddess, Coyote from the various pantheons of Native American religion, etc.

        Let’s see how we can show that your god doesn’t exist. There is no evidence for any of the essential events in the bible. Despite thousands of years of looking, Christians and Jews have come up with nothing. No magical creation where everything we see know was formed, no world-wide mountain high flood of Noah, no “exodus”, no great battles of hundreds of thousands of men, no wondrous palaces or temples filled with tons of gold, no day where an earthquake, sun darkening and the ancient dead walking around in Jerusalem. No evidence of Christians being able to do the same and better miracles that Jesus Christ did. No elders being able to heal disease by laying on hands and anointing with oil. All of the claims of the bible and promises of the bible fail. If the details fail, then there is no reason to believe that your god exists at all. Christians can’t even agree when any of the essential events of the bible happened.

        Now, one can say that the bible is entirely wrong and that this god is somehow different. Then I would ask you to define this god. What does it do? Why does it do it? It certainly wouldn’t be the god you worship then.

        Again, please do show your logic, hiway. Tell me what evidence you have of the god you worship. You claim it exists, it’s up to you to support that claim. If you have no positive evidence for this god, then the evidence that I have, that none of the claims of your bible are true and that entirely other events happened in their place is strong evidence that your god doesn’t exist. Just like it is that no other gods exist.

        It’s so cute to see you repeat false claims about me and other atheists. I guess that injunction against bearing false witness doesn’t really apply to you? How strange when I get to hear just how important it is to have the first 10 commandments plastered everywhere.

        No, I am not a rebellious child craving something “different”; that’s a typical strawman argument from a Christian. I am a thoughtful adult who knows that you have no evidence for your god, and all you have as an excuse is “but but, you can’t prove that my imaginary friend doesn’t exist”. I know that the promises and claims of the bible cannot be supported and have failed.

        The majority of humanity have decided that lots and lots of gods exist, not only your Christian one does, and even Christians don’t agree on what their god is, what it wants and how to please it. We have Calvinists who are sure that predestination is the only right answer, we have Catholics who are sure that saints are the way to go, we have evangelicals who are sure that anyone but them are wrong and damned, we have orthodox Christians who disagree with all of the above, and we have Christians who are sure that the trinity idea is wrong. So, your “majority” is billions of people who have completely different ideas about what “god” is, and isn’t a majority at all. I don’t believe the claims of any of you about your gods, for likely the same reasons you don’t believe in any other god but your own.

        I certainly don’t’ claim to know it all, another lie you have told, but I do know that your claims are false and you only attack your strawman version of a atheist. You rely on deliberate falsehoods and fear to support your religion, which speaks volumes about what that religion is worth.

        It’s nice to see you make further false claims. Please do show how atheism is “useless and abhorrent”. I know you don’t like atheists because we show that your beliefs aren’t the foregone conclusion you thought they were. The mere existence of atheists makes theists doubt and confront their own mortality. We show that morality is not limited to religion or Christianity at all. Indeed, we show that many self-proclaimed Christians aren’t the moral paragons that they claim, by daring to point out your lies and failures.

        I am glad that you show how much you hate anyone other than those that agree with you with your false claims about me, hiway. It’s always lovely to see a Christian calling someone an idiot and something to be hated and a fool. Hmmm, wasn’t there something in the bible about calling someone a fool? I guess you’ve decided you can ignore that part too, eh? Again, more evidence that Christians make their god in their image. You of course can’t answer or address my points, so you are reduced to calling me names. How respectable. 
        If the Lord is perfectly correct, then you need to tell me why I should think so? What does perfect mean? Is this just another lovely circular argument: God is good is god is good, etc. Many religions make this claim. Why should anyone accept your version? Many religions make the claim that one just has to look around and see the universe as evidence. Well, as soon as one of you can show that it was *your* god, I’ll consider it. Can you?

        Why didn’t this perfectly correct being teach humans about washing ones hands before being a midwife or treating a wound? Why did this god never once speak out against owning another human being? If Christianity is this perfect moral code, why did it take humans and thousands of years to come up with the idea that slavery was wrong?

        And dear, I’m anything but young. You’re wrong again.

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      • Some like to eat raw meat. For them it’s easy to justify why it is tasty. Others like it baked so hard they can hardly chew. Because one prefers to believe something is true does not make it true. So how can you say it is easy to prove anything? I suggest you have no proof of anything at all. You only have your imagination which is full of hatred and discontent.

        A cup of coffee might be good in the morning. But if you lace it with bile it is no longer a tasty cup of coffee.

        If your thoughts were relatively innocent you might be more palatable. But agreement is far from your desire. The only thing your heart wants is to destroy. Still, I see you offer me nothing.

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      • Please do show your claims to be true, hiway. Show evidence that your god exists and that the essential events in the bible happened. Tell me what year the Noah flood happened, the exodus. What year and day did Jesus Christ supposedly resurrect? If you can pinpoint the dates, then we can certainly look for evidence.

        you can “suggest” I haven’t shown anything to be true as much as you’d like. However, as you say, just because you claim that, doesn’t mean it is true. Show evidence to refute me. But you can’t, can you?

        Again, more lies that you have told about me. I do not hate you or your religion. I do know that it is wrong and its claims have failed. Can you, as a true follower of Christ, do anything that this supposed messiah promised? Why aren’t you at the local VA healing people?

        I am not looking to agree with you. I am asking you to support your claims. I am also showing how badly you are lying about others.

        My thoughts are certainly not ‘innocent’ by which you evidently mean ignorant. I again ask you to support your claims. Tell me why your religion should be followed and why another shouldn’t be, when all relgioins have the same lack of evidence for their claims.

        So, I offer you nothing? Hmmm, that seems to be going around since you have yet to show that your claims of eternal life are true?

        Where is that evidence that your god exists and no other does, hiway?

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      • You will find the proof in the life I lead; that the living God is with me in Christ Jesus, and provokes me to far better things then you can generate. He keeps me from embracing lies as my own. 24-7, he speaks to me of what is true and useful.

        And in prayer, the hope he promises comes alive within my soul. He strengthens me to endure things no man can endure alone, and with joy. The proof you’re asking for is hidden from your blind eyes. Because you retain pride and will not humble yourself before the living God.

        You ask me for the proof. If God is not willing to give it to you because of the hardness of your heart, I certainly have no right to offer it either.

        If you want proof, humble yourself before the living God in faith. Admit what your conscience already knows; you are a sinner just like I was and worthy of death. And don’t do this just once. Make it your lifestyle. Then I promise you, you will have the proof you were asking for.

        That is a tall price to pay for you, however. And I have no expectation that you will embrace this response. Though in Christ, stranger things have happened. There are thousands who once walked in your footsteps. But somehow God opened their eyes. So I don’t consider you to be completely hopeless. But I cannot ignore the enormity of probability that you will lay down your pride and turn to God in truth.

        Whether you believe it or not, my friend, you will appear before the living God to give full accounting of everything you have done. Arrive there in complete amazement or arrive there free to eternal life. The choice is entirely in your hands.

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      • I’ll find what proof in the life that you lead? What I have seen and documented, is that you intentionally tell false things about others. In that I was a Christian(Presbyterian, and cue the claims I couldn’t have been), and I know that lying is frowned on, there is certainly no evidence that there is any god in you at all, much less the Christian one presented in the bible. So, your claims that his god keeps you from embracing lies as your own is quite false.

        For prayer to be so wonderful for you, one does have to wonder what this god does when people pray to him with real problems and this god does nothing. All I see is a man who wants to pretend that he is so very important that his god will attend him and ignore everyone else.

        As soon as you can show me your god exists, then we might talk about humbling myself before this god. As it is, when I was losing my faith, I prayed to this god for help. Funny how this god didn’t do a thing for me. Now, I can get the idea that this god blinds everyone it doesn’t want to accept it. This is what JC says when asked why he spoke in parables, and what this god supposed says in Romans 9. So the belief that people can freely accept god is a lie when compared to what the bible says. If this god picks and chooses on a whim, then there is no justice in the world.

        Ah, and the dreaded hardening of the heart. Per your bible and your own words, “The proof you’re asking for is hidden from your blind eyes.” This means that this god intentionally hardened my heart. I do absolutely love your excuse that you can’t offer proof now since your god supposedly does it. You don’t have any proof at all, do you, hiway? Not one scrap, and you offer any excuse to hide the fact. The problem is that Jesus Christ himself said that miracles were offered to show the unbelieving, so your excuse fails before the words of your supposed savior. Paul says that the universe is proof, so this god has already supposedly shown it. Or are they wrong, hiway? They must be if I am to accept your excuse.

        As I have said, I was a Christian and humbled myself in asking for help as I lost my faith. So again, your claims have been shown to be in error. How does one make it a lifestyle to admit being a sinner and worthy of death. I want to know details so I can do it right. Can you give them?

        Nope, it’s not a high price to pay at all. you just need to tell me exactly what to do, not give vague homilies. If you are sure that your way is the right way, then tell me what this way is. Shall flagellate myself as some sects say? Do I give away all of my wealth, depending sole on God to support me as the lilies of the field?

        How is it pride to ask for evidence, hiway? Thomas did the same thing and he got his questioned answered. Jesus did not say that he was wrong for asking, he only said it was better not to ask. Why is there no evidence for this Thomas?

        Ah, there’s the threat! Christians have been promising that I’ll be before the living god real soon now. Just like they’ve been promising the end times nonsense for the last 2000+ years. Alas, hiway, I don’t believe in your god, or any gods, and your threats mean nothing more to me than a threat from a Muslim that you will stand before their version of a god is a threat to you. If this god is anything more than your fantasy of a god that agrees with you, this god will have no problem with me at all. You won’t get your petty revenge for me daring to show you to be wrong. And, as you’ve indicated before, this isn’t in my hands at all. it’s your petty god preventing me from knowing anything. You do need to decide which version of your god you want to claim is true. Contradictions are such a mess.

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      • Will your pride let me be right in assuming that you will not search out the answer I provided to you? You point at me as if I can stop you by my own actions. As if I am a realistic excuse to retain the hardness of your heart. How does that move you one inch closer to the truth of what I told you is the answer?

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      • You provided no answers, hiway. I’ve asked for exactly how one is supposed to live as one is a sinner and one deserves death. You claim to know some truth, so I am asking you to present it.

        You are certainly a realistic excuse for not believing in your god if you claim to be a Christian and cannot do as your god promised.

        As for the supposed hardness of my heart, per your own argument, your god put that there. But of course you also want to claim that I am a rebellious child, which contradicts your other claims.

        Again, hiway, you try to claim your god supposedly won’t give evidence so that absolves you from having to do the same. Unfortunately, your bible itself says that this god has no problem in providing evidence, showing your excuse to be just that.

        When did the essential events of the bible happen, hiway? Where is the evidence that your god has done anything? Why don’t you believe in other gods?

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      • I told you but you didn’t listen. You don’t want to hear the answer because you do not have the desire. That’s not a slam, that’s just the way it is.

        If you want the proof that I have in my soul for the things that I tell you are true, humble yourself before the living God in faith, pray in earnest expectation, read His Holy Word the Bible, give your entire life to these things, and you will absolutely know that what I say is true.

        Look at your own words this morning. They are not at all similar to one who sincerely wants to know. They are a continual attack against what belongs to the living God in Christ Jesus; whom I know personally and have great joy to serve. This is why I called you out in the first place. While it is some pleasure to mock what others fear, it would be far more pleasurable to call you a brother in Christ.

        It is right here, look at it! I have given you the answer to release from all the hatred that you love so dearly. It is right here, look at it! Why would you pester me or anyone else ever again?

        For one simple reason, you don’t want to. There can be no release or fix for stubbornness and willful love for ignorance.

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      • Hiway, I’ve asked *how* you do these things you claim. Any theist can claim that one should humble ones self before a certain god. If I were a Muslim, I could tell you to humble your self before Allah, pray in earnest expectation, and read his holy book the Qu’ran. But if I don’t tell you how this is accomplished, I am telling you nothing no how to get proof that Allah exists. Now, I have begged the Christian god for help, asked it to show me the truth, prayed asking for help, and I still lost my faith. I still look for evidence of this god and still have found none. I discourse with Christians and they keep promising me evidence for their god and they keep failing to be able to provide it.

        This is why I ask again, how does one do these things you claim will allow me to know what you say is true. How does one humble ones self? How does pray in “earnest expectation”? You are just repeating words in the bible and I suspect that you have no idea what those words mean. The words earnest expectation essentially mean a serious and/or intent belief that something will happen or will likely happen. Now, considering that I prayed just like that when I was a Christian and when I was losing my faith, praying because I was sure that God would answer, I have evidence that your claims fail and I have no reason to think that what you say is true because it has not been show to be the case.

        You claim that my words are some how “not at all similar to one who sincerely wants to know.” Well, hiway, what would those words be like? I do expect you to show me just how my words aren’t what you would consider words of someone who sincerely wants to know evidence for your god. I suspect that as usual, this is a vague claim made in order that you don’t have to present this evidence or answer my questions.

        Plenty of theists claim to know their god personally, and they of course can’t show this to be the case and anything more than personal delusion or simply a false claim made in order to try to impress someone. You claim to serve your god. How do you do this and how can I know you actually fulfill what this god wants? I know that Christians don’t agree on what this god wants, so your claiming to serve it and do what it wants needs to be supported with evidence that this god approves of what you do.

        You called me out? Really? It seems that I found you and pointed out your claims were nonsense. You seem to think I fear something. What would that be, hiway? And how can you support your claim? Or again, is it your desperate hope that I am somehow afraid of you or of your god? I’m as frightened of you or your god as I am frightened of Darth Vader. I have no reason to be afraid of a imaginary being that does nothing, and that is a rather interesting reflection of the humans who claim to believe in it.

        Again, every theist says “It is right here, look at it!” Now, since you obviously don’t accept such claims from other theists, why should I believe you when you make the exact same claim? And nice try but no hatred here for you or your god. You tell lies about me again, hiway and it weakens your case that you do any god’s will in service to it. I certainly do want to see this evidence of yours. You simply need to present it and realize that baseless claim that you make that are just like those claims that you disbelieve aren’t evidence. I have no willful love of ignorance. What I do love is evidence. Hiway, any theist could use your arguments and claim that it is *you* who are full of hate for their religion and it is you who is stubborn and who loves ignorance. That you use their arguments and cannot provide any evidence just like they can’t, is why I don’t believe you and why your claims about atheists are wrong, when you claim that we aren’t considering your claims fairly.

        This Thomas is still waiting for evidence, evidence that your god supposedly has no problem in giving.

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      • I don’t have time right now to finish reading what you wrote. But I read enough to smell your sincerity. Understanding how it feels to be so close and not be able to grasp, I will offer you what happened for me.

        They told me all I had to do was believe, and Jesus would give me eternal life. I thought that was pretty stupid myself. It sounded far too good to be true. Really, believe, that’s all there is to it!?

        So I believed and I waited. And I believed and I still waited. Some things came and went that I attributed to my God Jesus because I believed.

        One thing I kept hearing them say over and over, “Continue in the faith”. They said it so often that wind out came to me I remembered what they said.

        This is what I have learned, my friend. I kept believing and waiting. I kept attributing all good things to Jesus, because I kept believing and waiting. I am still believing and waiting. But look at what I’m saying. I am still believing.

        I believe that God cannot lie. So I believe the story of Jesus that I read in the New Testament. Believing that, I look at the strength of this amazing individual! And while I wait and believe I pray. That’s where I meet this amazing individual.

        I don’t meet him in person. And this is really hard to explain, I don’t think it’s humanly possible, but some exchange happens when a believing man praise to the living God’s holy son. I can’t explain how it’s done and I can’t explain what happens but I know for a fact I walk away a changed man.

        You ask, & I will quickly answer, about Allah or Buddha or any other religion. All of them tell me what I must do, & I find myself fully unable to obey. Can I believe, yes can I wait yes can I pray yes.

        The other religions would not have changed me at all. They would only have added to my worry. But in my soul I know I personally have proof that believing and waiting and praying has worked.

        I see that you were sincere. I know that you have tried to believe before. That’s what I was for nearly 20 years, my friend. I tried to believe. Finally, maybe 8 years ago, I heard my Lord’s voice in the ears of my soul. He finally answered my belief. But it took almost 25 years of believing and waiting.

        Please, take the time to read chapter 11 of Hebrews. With what I have just told you look at the lives of the people the writer of Hebrews illuminates. Not a single one of them received the fullness of their rewarded belief until they left this place of testing.

        Oh sometimes they got special gifts given to them from God. But even in those days had to have a believing faith to tell everyone that this came from the living God. See how they continued in their belief, despite all possible odds against them.

        It is not because I have believed as a habit that I tell you the habit of believing is good. It is because through the habit of believing God saw my faithfulness and finally came to me. Albeit he came to me invisible, yes. But by then I knew who I was looking for didn’t I?

        I really have to go or I’ll get fired from my job. With all my heart I want you to understand. I know this has been a rushed message. And I sincerely hope Google speech hasn’t screwed us up so bad that you can’t figure out what I wrote. But I will write more later after I have taken the time to read your messages.

        Let me pray.

        Holy Father you see this conversation. You know the hearts on both sides. You know how inept we both are in regard to this wonderful thing that you have offered to all men. Sovereign God, we need your help.

        By the end describable strength of your holy and righteous son I submit these words before you’re holy throne. You are the living God. You have taken hold of my soul. I belong to you. I ask you to bless this one who comes to me. Please open his eyes that he can understand.

        In Jesus you are holy and righteous son I pray amen

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      • So, from what you have written, you have no evidence for your god, you have only that you have attributed everything good to something for no reason. You are still believing and waiting and still have nothing to show for it. All this seems to be is a version of Pascal’s wager, where you assume you are right and everyone else is wrong and you tell yourself that everything good is because of God, and using selection bias, ignore that you suffer from all of the same things that everyone else does. Again, there is no more reason to believe your claim than those of another theist, which you also do not believe.

        Like most theists, you believe beause you trust that people who have told you this god exists. You had a reason to believe them, and now that trust is used to keep your faith intact. You may believe that you god cannot lie but that is no more meaningful than saying that you are sure that God did the flood, or that Jesus Christ son of God existed, when there is no evidence of this.
        Other religions claim prayer to be effective too. Do you believe them?

        One would wonder about the efficacy of prayer considering that I know millions of Christians were praying that the SCOTUS would not approve of gay marriage. Their prayers failed, which makes me doubt your claim that prayer works at all. Whose prayers worked on 9/11? Or did no prayers work and humans will be heroes and horrors no matter what?

        You make an utterly baseless claim about other religions. You have no idea if they would have changed you at all or added to some “worry”. All religions tell you what you must do and if you are raised in their cultures, you have a very high percentage change of accepting them just as you accepted Christianity; you trusted that other humans were right. And yep, those believers make the exact same claims you do, about what they feel in their souls.

        I find it amusing that now you change your tune about me. So, now I’m sincere. I’ve been waiting for quite a few decades for this god. Now, again, why not answer me when I was losing my faith? Then no loss, no decades of not believing.

        I’ve read the entire bible a couple of times and Hebrews 11 does stick out because it contradicts a lot of other bible claims. Paul is rather good for making claims that contradict what is said in the gospels. Again, no one needs just faith per Jesus Christ himself, you can ask for evidence. If one believes in the bible, those patriarchs got their rewards while they were alive, so your claims of “fullness” are based on a religion that those patriarchs didn’t believe in. There was no way for Cain to know that this god liked meat more than veggies, so knowing by “faith” is nonsense. The claims of Chrisitanity changed because Jesus failed to return when claimed; rather than a return of heaven on earth within a generation, Christians had to come up with why that didn’t happen, your god becomes vaguer and vaguer, and, just as you say, you are still waiting. The patriarchs didn’t keep their faith against impossible odds, the stories cannot be shown to be true at all, and anything can happen in a myth.

        Your claim that this is a place of testing is also amusing when you also expect me to believe in an omnipotent, omniscient being. Why would such a being need to test people, hiway? Especially, why would a being that intentionally blinds people and hardens their hearts need to test people? If we are to believe the bible, the result is a foregone conclusion, this god already knows who will pass and who will fail (per its own interference).

        I can understand that belief is just a habit, done without thought or consideration. You claimed to know who to go looking for, that your version of god was somehow the only right one. It’s not surprising that Christians find the god that they imagine, and not a universal truth like they claim. It’s called a self-fulling prophecy.

        I’ve had a lot of people praying for me and surprise, their prayers all fail. Now, assuming yours fails like all of the others, what will be the reason? That your god has some mysterious purpose for damning me? That your god likes me and has no problem with an atheist? That your god doesn’t like you and doesn’t like your prayers?

        I’m going to stick with your god doesn’t exist until I see some evidence.

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      • I cannot say I have nothing to show for it. If you knew the life I live before the Lord pick me up you would not think that. Who has time, but if you read the volume of the things he has provoked me to write you would not say that. If you need the strength of my confidence, you would not say that. If you could be privy to the intensity of prayer between my father and I, you would not say that. If somehow I could give you a taste of the joy that is in me 24 7, you would not say I have no proof.

        But God has established that every man will receive salvation through faith alone.

        Yes I have proof. But only faith will perceive it.

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      • I have read the volume of things that you claim that this god has provoked you to right. Again, this god is also claimed to have provoked others to write the exact opposite of your claims.

        How can I tell whose claims to be writing for this god to be the truth?

        Intensity and confidence are no harbingers of the truth. And God has not established that everyman will receive salvation through faith alone. Again, the bible itself contradicts that claim.

        Your claim that you have proof but only faith will perceive it is again just like every religion and quite a few nasty philosophies. it’s like saying you have proof that Nazism is true but only acceptance of Nazism as true will allow one to see the proof. It’s a tad circular.

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      • If one loses both lose because the reward of winning is so high, while the cost of even the loss of one is unspeakable. I dressed for war because that is what the world knows how to do. And in every battle, I can tell you, every soldier is sincere. Sincerely deadly.

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      • No, hiway, you haven’t told me what you know is true. If you had, you could have given evidence to support it. What you have done is tell me what you *believe* is true, just like any other theist. You wish to claim that your god has provoked you to write what you have, and again your claims contradict other Christians’ claims. There is no reason to believe that your writings are any more inspired by your god than those who disagree with you. Since none of you have any evidence, there is little reason to think any of you are speaking any truths.
        It is always a curious thing that someone like you will not accept the claims you make if they came from another theist that you didn’t agree with. This attitude also informs me about just how weak your claims are.

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      • Why do you continue to discount what I say? If you are not willing to believe my testimony, why do you continue to debate the issue?

        With all sincerity, I wonder why you would even give me the strength of your tiny fingers to type words, if all that I say to you is nothing more than tripe.

        Again, that’s not an attack. It’s a reasonable and wise assessment of your futile activity toward me, and any Christian for that matter.

        If you are not willing or able to believe our testimony, why do you waste your time to discredit it? I simply don’t understand such a waste of your “potential” as a man who only believes he has a limited number of moments until he is no more.

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      • I’m put to mind the enormity of your problem. I took a look at your website, or blog if you will. That’s an awful lot of work. Like my blog, it’s an awful lot of earnest intent. Our blogs are like our children aren’t they. One would sooner die then abandon his precious children.

        Not only does your pride stand in the way of the answer I gave you. But my answer also threatens your dearly loved children. That’s an enormous difficulty!

        And I’ve only spoken here about the work we both do, and love so much. There is another loss that binds you hand and foot to remain where you are. The Society of people who embrace your children with great affection, what would these think if you turned away from your children with the utter contempt my answer demands? Yes I see the enormity of your problem.

        I am not an idiot. I am not ignorant to the demands of life and society. I am not ignorant to the high cost we must pay when we decide to fully believe.

        When I first believed, in the way of compiling the work we both do now, I was a pauper. It really was no difficulty for me to leave the life that I was living. That life has proven itself to be worthless and nothing more than an indent in the fabric of time. But since that time I have become familiar with the discipline of investigation and testimony, much as I see you are.

        So I look at what you must do to accept my answer. Yes, I see the enormity of your difficulty. Not only is my answer to you foreign, it is a threat to everything you own.

        That is why I am reduced to ask this question, “What if I’m right?” Because I know what you have to forfeit if you do choose to accept my answer as probable. The question is no threat. The question simply stands up in class and presents itself as it is. He promises absolute confidence, something the rest of the class has never known.

        I believed what he said. I chased down his prescription. And now I stand firmly embedded in all that will never cease.

        Like the man who is first to jump into the river. I yell back to my friends on the shore, “It’s difficult, because it’s cold. But the freedom of swimming is so much worth it!”

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      • You challenge us as useless. To the shame of most Christians that would be a proper assessment. But I want to show you what the power of Christ does to a man’s heart; how it can fill a man with absolute abandon and fearlessness against all possible odds and foreboding.

        If you are willing, you are welcome to read my post called “The Freezer”. Take note that such things are not written by those who are timid and filled with cowardice. They are written by those who are filled, to overflowing, with strength and release.

        (Want some a this?)

        By the way. Yes, I did post it, word for word, among their “happy” string of remarks. My only regret is that it couldn’t be spoken to their face.

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      • You claim that challenging Christians is useless, or at least that’s what I think you are saying. However, it isn’t useless at all. Plenty of Christians and other theists have deconverted because they were prodded to question their religion by the challenges of believers of other faiths and by agnostics and atheists. Your claim that challenging Christians is useless is again show to be wrong and appears to only be an attempt to try to convince others to sit down and shut up.

        You have shown little about the power of Christ in a man’s heart since all you’ve demonstrated is need to make false claims about others who don’t follow your religion. I see no bravery because you have done your best to avoid answering my questions by making excuse after excuse. Plenty of people do show true fearlessness against all odds and they aren’t all Christians at all. So, we see that any claim of the power of your god to be nothing more than what humans regularly do.

        So, where is this post “The Freezer”. Your blog search facility cannot find one blog post on your site called “The Freezer” or that contains that term. It’s very interesting that you didn’t bother to post a link to it. And what did you post among whose “happy string of remarks”?

        When did the essential events of the bible happen, hiway? Where is the evidence that your god has done anything? Why don’t you believe in other gods?

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      • You and I have been dressed for war. We met on a mutual battlefield; a place where if one loses neither wins. The only flag of truce I will honor is the flag of sincerity. I saw you carry it high. For that, I will lay down my weapons.

        Again I don’t have time right now. But let us both go and change our clothing.

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      • You may be dressed for war. I have not. I have always been sincere. That hasn’t prevented you from making false accusations about me.

        “a place where if one loses neither wins” That’s quite a non-sequitor. I wonder, how is it that if you lose, I lose?

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      • If one loses both lose because the reward of winning is so high, while the cost of even the loss of one is unspeakable. I dressed for war because that is what the world knows how to do. And in every battle, I can tell you, every soldier is sincere. Sincerely deadly.

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      • Ah, that is exactly Pascal’s wager. There is an assumption, with no evidence to support it, that there is some reward. Again, evidence for this? And you might also consider what evidence you have that no other gods exist that you might be pissing off by being wrong.

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      • You don’t see the smile on my face after reading this one. I’m not laughing at what you wrote. The confidence of Christ in me laughs at the idea that they even are other gods to piss off as you say.

        My friend I know this is so hard for you to grasp. I know I know I know.

        I am forced to leave you with this concept. As I have said before, when an impasse arises, what if I’m right.

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      • Please do show how you know that there aren’t other gods. Even your god claimed that there are.

        What if you are right? Again, you have yet to show this to be the case. If there is a petty god that hates humans for something that it created them to do and knew (being omnipotent) that they would do it, I would still stand against such a miserable god and its followers. I value being good, decent and humane far above some fear that I need to obey some god like you have invented.

        Sorry, hiway, fear isn’t a way to make me obey something so vile.

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      • It is man who is vile, sir. You misunderstand the point completely. God protects what is pure. Man is vile. Guess what’s going to happen. Doesn’t it make sense that what is not pure love will perceive the protection of pure love as an offence?

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      • Again, show evidence that your version of Christianity is the correct one. We have no evidence your god exists, much less what you claim is pure is what this god agrees with.

        nope, it makes no sense that what you claim is pure love, with no evidence at all, can perceive anything, because you cannot show that it exists. What is “pure love”, hiway? How is it love to damn people for actions not of their own? Your bible does have a decent definition of what love is (though some bibles have it as charity). What is amusing is that your god utterly fails to meet the definition. 1 Corinthians 13 goes into all of the things love is and your god is none of them. How is that, hiway? Per your own bible, if something is jealous, keeps record of wrongs, is easily angered, is impatient, etc etc, how is this love?

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      • You ask questions of me, but I also see a continuing attack of me; there is venom in your words. You consider me the enemy because you say I conceal what cannot be proven. And it is driving you crazy when I tell you I HAVE the proof within me.

        I could rearrange all the things I have said until you and I are both dead, and the impasse would continue. So allow me to move on to explain things beyond your understanding. That’s not a slam. Just look at your frustration and there is proof that these things are beyond your understanding.

        I will send this and go to prayer that what I say to you will be of value to us both. It is the living God in me they will give me strength to answer what this impasse cannot produce

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      • I certainly do ask questions of you. Any “venom” is only what you imagine, in order to find an excuse on why you don’t have to answer me, to play the wannabee martyr.

        No, it’s not driving me or anyone crazy that one more Christian claims he has proof within him, when every Christian does this and they contradict you. It is always amusing when someone like you makes such claims, sure that he and only he has the right answer. You could indeed keep repeating the same baselss claims until we are both dead. This should tell you something. You have nothing but the claims you have made, just as baseless as those claims made by people you disbelieve. Without evidence, you will not convince others. You are stuck preaching to the choir, a very small one since you are quite sure that other Christians are wrong.

        I know it’s not a slam that you think that I can’t understand what you claim. That’s because I can understand. It’s rather hard to be insulted by something that doesn’t exist, just like your “proof”. It seems that your prayer has failed since your claims have yet to be of value.

        What happens when your god doesn’t come through with this “strength to answer what this impass cannot produce”? Will you accept that as evidence that your god doesn’t exist or will you come up with one more excuse on why it failed again?

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      • Love is not passive, my friend. It does not sit on the sidelines and watch you walk towards destruction without doing something about it. I yell at a theist, challenge their attacks, and speak boldly in front of the mall, because the love of God in Christ compels me to do that. If I say nothing they will surely be destroyed. And why should they not be destroyed? Look at the venomous replies.

        Should such a people, as those you redefine the word love to their own satisfaction, have eternal life? Will not such a people incur a second wrath unto themselves? But God, in His wisdom, has made this place as a place of choice. “Decide today. Love me willingly, or come present yourselves to be destroyed.”

        The cross of Christ remains. It is sufficient proof for those who love the living God. It is absolute folly for those who remain God’s enemies.

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      • Before I bother posting the rebuttals to your latest raft of claims, it is probably more efficient to ask the following.

        So, hiway, I have done as you asked, and your claims fail and your opinion has been shown to be not based on reality, no better than those opinions of the people you claim are wrong. You have claimed that you are praying for an answer for me and that you are certain your god will give you the answer I supposedly need. Then you claim you don’t want to continue our conversation .

        Which is it, hiway? Are you going to get this answer from your god or not? Shall I wait for it? Or are you looking for an excuse to bow out since you know it will never come?

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      • Who am I that you should do everything I ask? I am NOT God. Who are you to follow a man? You do not answer to me. I tell you about the judge of all men. It is to him you must go. It is to him you must remain. I am nothing more than a petrified feecie on the sidewalk. It is to the majesty of the living God’s Holy Son that I continue to point.

        But you are firmly of the mind of man. For I see that you seek to obey men. You think that obeying some set of adherence is will bring you your desire. That is no better than legalism.

        You said you did the things I suggested. I submit that you did not. For the primary thing I suggested is that you go to God and stay there.

        God is not foolish my friend. He is not a car that you can go and test drive. He says come love me more than everything in this world. He says come and be my disciple for the rest of your entire life.

        But see how the mind of man considers that there are many products that will do what he wants to have done. As if a radio from Radio Shack is the same as one from Walmart.

        I have no idea what you will think next. But trying to receive from the living God by the mind of man, is like trying to push a wet string into a small hole. It would be better if someone on the other side of the hole there to pull the string in for you.

        ( man do I dislike Google speech. It’s handy but it’s stupider than I am!)

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      • Ah, now I get to see the excuses on why now you and your god won’t be providing the promised answers I supposedly need in your own words. It does make a difference, doesn’t it, when someone actually expects you to make good on your promises? You are like every charlatan who has ever existed, unable to support your claims.

        I am quite amused that your claims are again proving false, and seeing that your prayers are just as useless as anyone’s. You show that you, as a Christian, consistently depend on making false claims and then running away from them when they don’t pan out.

        Again, you make claims that contradict your bible. Why should I believe you? I’m still waiting for your prayers to pan out. Since the bible promises that prayers will be answered quickly, positively, and without this god giving you one thing when asked for another, where is the answer that will change my mind?

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      • As far as bowing out of our conversation, in the eyes of Christ you are my friend for the time being. While I am still on this earth it is my pleasure a bull job to speak the truth to anyone who will hear.

        So his servants have done even in the Roman Coliseum. So his servants have done during the Inquisition. Why should I turn away from any man while I am still here in the flesh? What is it to me if we talk until my last breath? For the next second places me with the one I love for eternity. Think of that, eternity!

        The world is unstable. Christ is not. Anyone who serves him with even a smidgen of faithfulness will develop stability. Anyone who says they serve Him and does not display a smidgen of stability, ahhhh, this one I would question.

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      • I have thought this through again. I remember how I struggled to understand the things of Christ. And it takes remembering to bring your plight to clarity.

        It was not the volume of what they said to me that made a difference. It was a word here, or a phrase there; those things that reached inside me and rung the bell of sanity.

        With that remembered, how could I justly consider the termination between us? And where will you find a friend who is willing to endure your pain with you? I will not abandon you to the wolves who wear fleece.

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      • I’m not your friend at all, hiway. My friends don’t lie to me and about me.

        You don’t speak the truth. You make claims and then when I hold you to them, you run away. You are nothing like those that died in the Coliseum. They couldn’t run away. You have, from every question I have asked.

        Oh, and hiway? It was Christians who murdered and tortured people for their Inquisition and their other pogroms against anyone who didn’t agree with them.

        You have shown that worshipping Jesus Christ does nothing special for you at all. it doesn’t make you honest, and it doesn’t make you courageous. You certainly haven’t shown that it makes on stable.

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      • I know that love is not passive. Never said it was. The bible has a pretty decent definition of it. And again, your god hilariously fails the definition despite the Christian claims that this god is “love”.

        This god repeatedly sits on the sidelines and causes the destruction, if one believes the bible. This god allows a snake in the garden either intentionally or it was too ignorant to keep it out.

        This god gambles with its supposed greatest enemy and causes the death of the innocent, just to show off.

        You may be honestly concerned with other people’s souls. This does not mean you are right, especially since you have no evidence that anyone is in danger. You keep insisting that there is a dragon in your garage that will eat everyone, but when asked to show it, you have nothing. It is not any love that motivates you, it is a desire to make believe that you know something no one else does and that they must depend on you to exist. No, no one will surely be destroyed. They haven’t been and they will not be.

        “If I say nothing they will surely be destroyed. And why should they not be destroyed? Look at the venomous replies.”Ah, that’s what I wanted to see, the very human and Christian desire you have that anyone who disagrees with you should be punished. Your claims and promises have been shown to fail and your words about others have been shown to be false. There is nothing venomous about the truth; it is uncomfortable though.

        The word love hasn’t been redefined by anyone but you, hiway. The bible has a good definition, I also like the definition of overriding concern for another and their happiness. Love isn’t about threatening people with eternal torture if they don’t obey. That’s the action of an abusive parent/spouse and it is indeed the actions of your god, if the bible is to be believed. I’m quite happy to not believe in it. No, such people who don’t agree with you won’t incur a first wrath or a second, because there is no reason to believe your threats. It’s great to see a quote that shows that this god of yours is nothing more than exactly the abusive parent. ““Decide today. Love me willingly, or come present yourselves to be destroyed.”

        The cross of Christ remains as a literary image since it is not based in reality. Christians do not agree what this cross actually represents, all making up what they want to pretend God wants, just like you, hiway. It may be sufficient proof for you, as blind belief is “sufficient” to Muslims, Wicca, Shinto, Jews, etc. You keep making threats, and it’s rather cute since you have nothing.

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      • Let me observe:
        You don’t understand the things of Jesus, because you approach all this body of testimony with false assumptions.
        You do not believe there is such a thing as eternity.
        You do not believe that man is fully at fault for every evil thing.
        You do not believe that there is a God, to whom every man must give account on a specified day (or moment or “place” in eternity).
        You do not believe in anything more than the “flesh”.
        How can you possibly think to apprehend the things I am telling you?
        Can you see what a miserable waste of time this is for you?
        It is no waste of my time, however, for with every answer you provoke me to give, my faith is strengthened by folds.

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      • Evidence, hiway. Why should I accept claims that are baseless? Again, Thomas supposedly got evidence. Where is this evidence?

        It’s so fun to watch you insist that I have to believe before I can understand which makes the purpose of your bible worthless. Like other religions that have nothing to support them, you must insist that only believers can understand which begs the question, how do people become believers if your bible is incomprehensible to anyone who doesn’t already believe? It’s a rather sticky chicken/egg question. I can apprehend aka understand the things you are telling me; that doesn’t mean that I must agree with you at all or that what you say is true.

        Still trying to claim that my showing the failures of your religion is a waste of time, are you? I guess that is all you have left, trying to convince me not to keep showing your claims to be no better than any other theist’s.

        One can place any god in your claims and show *you* to be the poor poor person who doesn’t apprehend the truth of other religions. You wish me to accept your claims when you wouldn’t accept the same claims from anyone else.

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      • In case it isn’t clear let me point this out. Nothing you were doing as you talk to me, is heading you in the direction of faith. You are only arguing to remain where you are. This is completely unprofitable activity.

        Either gather yourself to believe or consider a discontinuance of these conversations.

        That’s not an ultimatum, it’s simply a rational and reasonable observation.

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      • It is only your opinion that what I am doing isn’t heading me in the direction of faith. What I am doing is looking for evidence and being willing to follow it to where it leads, not to where I want.

        I have repeatedly asked you for evidence for your claims. You have refused or have offered the exact same baseless claims as are offered by all of the theists you disbelieve. It is not unprofitable at all to ask you for evidence. If you can provide this evidence, then I can see why one should believe in a god. If you cannot, I can be even more certain that the claims of religion are false. I can understand that continuing this conversation is completely unprofitable for you if you do not have any evidence. It is a losing proposition for you if you only have personal faith. This is why theists, particularly Christians, spend so much time and resources trying to find evidence and why there is an entire industry of apologetics for religion. If your god was so obvious, there would be no questions. If this god was love, this god would not play hide and seek. If this god was real and its myths true, there is no reason we shouldn’t see the same magic as they claim and plenty of reason we should see Christians like you healing others of illness and injury.

        But we don’t.

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      • It is impossible that you will ever agree with what I am Telling You. Your claim has one place of reversion; you consider that everything I tell you is nothing more than a single man’s opinion. Even if you move 1 inch from where you are, you will turn back to accuse me of opinionated belief.

        It is not possible that my tiny mind can summon an end to this impasse. So I have gone to prayer to my Father in Heaven that he may help you and I with an answer. As always, when the answers come they seem so simplistic that we are amazed we did not see this before.

        If my opinion is to be proven as the fact, it is necessary for the one who challenges me to go and examine my opinion, not just sit there and challenge it.

        If you are sincere to prove the validity of my claims, then go and do them. I don’t need to reiterate anything more. You have all my claims in writing.

        It is not that I desire to cease our conversation, but that our conversation should produce something of any value at all. To banter back and forth between you and I is a useless waste of time.

        The proof waits for you to go and uncover it.

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      • No, it isn’t impossible at all that I will agree with you. All you need is evidence, hiway. As I have pointed out, you don’t agree with other theists who make the same claims you have made to me. Now, why don’t you believe them, hiway? That is the question you have consistently avoided. Why don’t you believe them if you think such arguments as you and they make are so wonderful?

        Yep, your claims are indeed the opinion of one man. You have yet to show that it anything you have claimed is true or that anyone agrees with you.

        Now, since I am sure you have been praying throughout this interaction, why hasn’t this god helped you at all? What happens if this god does nothing as you hope? You haven’t provided any answers, much less anything amazingly simplistic.

        Please do show your opinion proven as fact. I’ve examined your opinion and again, it fails. I have gone and done them and I do believe I’ve already told you that and asked you for details of your opinion so I can do exactly as you do. Unsuprisingly, you have given me instructions like “humble yourself”. You cannot of course tell me what that means, as you cannot tell me what it means to follow Christ since Christians cannot agree on that and show that their opinions are better than the next.

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      • I just read this comment of yours again. I’m not sure if it’s useful to say this, for haven’t I said it before.

        You search for evidence. I tell you that you will find the evidence when you do the things of Christ. So what is your response to me; “You provide me no evidence”.

        How is it that you cannot hear my words? The evidence will absolutely and surely, concretely and eternally, come to you when you do the things of Christ

        The frustration you are feeling is not because I have not given you the right answer. It is because you fail to apply it.

        I want you to understand. It is not I Who am frustrated here. It is you. And you are not frustrated because I have not answered you, but because you refuse the answer.

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      • I do search for evidence. You rely on a lack of evidence to not believe in the gods of other religions. You promise that I will find evidence when I believe, which is not what evidence is. Evidence will be there if I believe already or not. Your bible states that your supposed messiah did miracles as evidence to convince people to believe. He did not come up with an excuse “well, I’ll do the miracles only once you believe.” It is only now when Christians know that there are no miracles to be had, that they now claim that one has to believe first.

        I certainly “hear” your words but that does not mean I have to agree with them. I understand your viewpoint since I once also had it, that there was some god and that how could anyone disagree with that. You make the same claims as all other theists, that if I only believe you and only you, I will magically find evidence. And if I don’t, well, the excuse is that I am not doing it “right”, but you cannot show what “right” is and the can is kicked down the road. I have done as you claim works and it doesn’t, so hearing your words does nothing.

        I am somewhat frustrated, but that is only because you cannot give an answer, though you claim to have evidence. When did the essential events of the bible happen, hiway? Why do you have no more evidence than any other religion and must retreat to the same promises they do? I haven’t failed to apply anything since as I have said, I have been humble before God, I have begged for help while I was losing my faith. I am nothing different than Thomas asking for evidence. If you deny that this happened in your bible, then you show that there is little reason in believing it if one can pick and choose from it.

        I never said you were frustrated. It’s terribly interesting that you insist that you are not.

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      • I’m to the point that I’m tired of reading your entire reply I’ll just respond to the first sentence.

        You don’t search for evidence. I told you you will find the evidence when you stop fighting.

        No for one more connected issue: do you notice a difference in our approach to each other? I treat you as one who may understand someday, therefore you could be my brother in Christ. But you treat not only me but my Lord with the utmost contempt. That should tell you something about the fruit of your beliefs.

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      • ah, so much for your grandiose claims of how you can debate me until you perish.

        Again, I am searching for evidence and you are lying when you claim I am not. For someone who claims to worship the Christian god, you seem to be a little unclear on how much it doesn’t like liars. Again, your supposed messiah never says that one will get evidence only if one already believes.

        Who am I to believe, you or Jesus Christ?

        You do not treat me as a person who could be your brother. That is not unless you lie about your brothers. It would have been quite different if you hadn’t decided that you needed to lie about me, hiway. You’ve destroyed any credibility you might have had in your claims, and that was by your own words.

        Again, the evidence, hiway. I’m waiting for your prayers to bear fruit. Are you now telling me they will not?

        As for treating me like a brother, you might want to revise that. It would be bit hard to do since I’m a woman. 🙂

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      • I will give you something constructive to accomplish. Since you believe there is no God, and that this life is all anyone has, it would make sense that the best possible life be attained.

        I maintain that the world has in its possession a people who have the potential to be the most useful ever born. The standard of our Christianity is higher than any man could possibly reach in his entire lifetime.

        Here’s the problems:
        Adherents to Christianity come from various degrees of wickedness. Bringing along with them their old habits and the things they learned since they were children. Both of these must endure transformation.

        Another difficulty is that while they endure any transformation, they are attacked from the outside, and regrettably, from the inside of Christianity.

        Currently, you are one of those who attacks from the outside. But I do not perceive how this helps your situation. For while you tear the Christian down, your beloved world spins out of control.

        If you cannot believe in God personally, that’s understood who can change that? But if you have at your disposal any encouragement that would spike the Christians to follow their clear gospel teachings, it seems to me everyone wins.

        I’ll let you think that one over.

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      • “Since you believe there is no God, and that this life is all anyone has, it would make sense that the best possible life be attained.” The best possible life *should* be attained. For me, this means always standing against people like you who try to use fear and ignorance to spread nonsense that harms humanity. There is nothing unique about religions, including Chrisianity, that improves life for humans. They may have had a beneficial effect early in our evolution, to encourage people to work together. However, any benefit is long-since been outweighed by the harm that the belief that one baseless claim is somehow better than another baseless claim.

        People can be quite useful. Whether the world contains those who can be the most useful ever born is up for debate. How can we know this? Being a Christian certainly doesn’t assure anyone will be useful. Christians are just like other people, just as hateful and just as loving. Just as intelligent and just as dumb. What Christians do is assign responsibility to some god, and have no evidence that it exists or does anything.

        You claim that Christianity has some standard higher than any man could possibly reach. What is that standard because many religions advocate the same standards, as so humanist philosophers? What is unique about Christianity, hiway?

        Wickedness is as meaningless as sin because even Christians can’t agree on what that is. All it seems to mean is whatever each individual theist, including Christians, wants to pretend their god hates which always is exactly what the theist hates. It’s a purely subjective claim.

        Christians certainly do attack each other. As I have observed, each Christian is sure that their version is the only right one and of course none of you have any evidence for this at all.

        Please do tell me how my beloved world spins out of control. It’s doing quite fine, it’s better now than it was a hundred years ago or a thousand. Humans often screw things up but we do advance. Happily, many of us have left behind ignorant superstition and religion, and religion has changed to catch up to the improvement of human morality. When religion once told us to blindly obey, we now question and move forward. The divine right of kings is in the dust, as well as the idea that slavery is okay. We cure diseases that were once claimed to be some god’s displeasure. We don’t believe that some god has a “chosen people” that somehow deserve everything and no one else does.

        I have no desire to encourage the nonsense that Christianity, no matter which version, teaches. You claim “clear gospel teachings” but again, you and I both known that Christians don’t agree on what those teachings are. They are anything but “clear”. For example, you certainly don’t like homosexuals or homosexuality. Other Christians have no problem with that at all. Your god does nothing to show which of you are right and no one wins when lies are spread in the name of some imaginary friend that you want to claim agrees with you and is some objective source of “truth”.

        What I will encourage is that people think for themselves and not allow others to think for them; I will encourage people to ask for evidence; I will encourage people to consider all humans deserving of equal rights; I will encourage people to take responsibility for their actions and consider those actions ramifications into the future, and not delude themselves into believing that some god will rescue them. I will encourage people to be empathic and compassionate. And that is certainly constructive.

        I am curious, hiway. What kind of Christian are you? Catholic? Protestant? Other? What are these “clear gospel teachings” that you would have others obey?

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      • I am a Christian estranged from the Christian Church. I am isolated from the body of Christ in a physical manner. I went to Northwest Christian College in Eugene Oregon to get a bachelor’s degree in pastoral ministries. I subsequently fell flat on my face within two years. In desperation I turned to drinking and every other manner of painkiller legal.

        About 8 years ago, was when the Lord came and spoke to my soul. In the eight years I have only attended a church gathering perhaps 10 times.

        In the process I have read the Bible again and again, God has taught me to play, God has taught me to understand, God has taught me how to have faith, it is God who has lifted me up. In short I cannot claim allegiance to any denomination of Christianity. I can only claim allegiance to the power of God within me.

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      • Thanks for answering. It doesn’t surprise me too much that you are one more Christian that has decided that other Christians aren’t practicing correctly.

        I wonder about how this god is always found after a person screws up their life, and not before they harm others.

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      • It seems to me that God comes to a man when the man finally realizes he has no inherent value whatsoever. As long as the man thinks he was able to maintain in his own, he has no room for the living God’s commands. This is why I came so strongly against the pride that’s so many display.

        And if there are many Christians who are saying that the Christian Church is in error, how can it be surprising? The Christian churches built on faith and integrity, yet the Christian churches also filled with faulty men. The necessity to believe, as you yourself have witnessed, is the most difficult task a man can ever lay hold of.

        Such a people require skilled shepherds. I personally found the training ground for shepherds lacks the power of God. This is my personal assumption. Men have been trying to figure out why the Christian Church lacks such great devotion, for centuries.

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      • Which would explain why people need to believe in a god and there doesn’t have to be one; that it is simply a human need to believe that something has control of the universe and will give the downtrodden some magical present after they are dead.

        There is no evidence that Chrisianity is built on anything but faulty men. If men are faultiy, and there is no evidence of a god, then there is little reason to believe that you, a faulty man, has any truth.

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      • You see how many quandary as you create for yourself as you try to reason this through. You will never come to a conclusion by using your mind. You will only find a peaceful solution by believing what I’m telling you.

        I know how foolish that sounds. But doesn’t God say, in the Bible, that he has confounded the wise and the wisdom of man by selecting the foolish? And what man could possibly think that God’s salvation should come to his own people be rejected by them and in the end be crucified and buried in a hole in the ground? It is absolutely surreal to the human mind. On top of that, God says if you we’ll have a part of this strong one whom you killed it will cost you everything you have. God says we will either believe he cannot lie, or we will stand the judgment alone.

        I understand your quandary. But I’m telling you the truth that was sent from heaven in the body of Christ to proclaim to every man who ever lived.

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      • Of course I see the problems that are created when someone actually thinks about Christianity and knows what the bible says and knows how contradictory Christian claims are.

        Unfortunately for you, one can certainly come to a conclusion by using one’s mind. The conclusion is that the gods that religions claim do not exist. It shows just how weak your argument is when you have to insist that one can’t use one’s mind to understand your god. Again, you show that your religion can only exist in an environment of willful ignorance.

        It’s such a classic tactic, to try to tell someone that the only way that they’ll be “peaceful” is by blindly accepting what you say. Trust in me, just in me. Shut your eyes and trust in me, as the snake in The Jungle Book says. Again, you have yet to show why I should believe what you tell me rather than a Christian who disagrees with you or some other type of theist entirely.
        I don’t think you do understand how foolish your claims are. Yep, the authors of the bible say that the character God says he confounds the wise and selects the foolish. The authors also say that it is damnable to call someone a fool, that one shouldn’t work on a “Sabbath”, that murdering disobedient children was a great idea, that giving up all you have is a good idea, that murdering people for not giving up enough money is a good idea, etc. You see, hiway, you are trying to use the bible to prove the bible, and that doesn’t work very well if the bible can be shown to be wrong in its claims. No evidence of essential events in the bible, no evidence of your god at all, so no reason to believe that this god does anything, much less choose the foolish.
        It’s quite easy to know that the reason that this god’s supposedly chosen people rejected claims of a messiah when those claims don’t match what they were supposedly promised. There is no evidence of this messiah, nor that this character was murdered or was buried *or* was supposed resurrected. Again, hiway, when did this happen? Surely you know, right? But you don’t, and all of the claims of the bible of what happened on those days can’t be shown to have occurred. No darkening of the sun, no earthquake that shook the temple so much it ripped a curtin, no dead walking in the streets.

        It is absolutely surreal to humans, and since there is no evidence to support such a nonsensical story, a story no more real than the myths of any other culture, it is the same as those myths, a story and nothing more. And you are not telling me any truth.

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      • Your testimony is nothing different from what is claimed by other theists. Again, what evidence do you have? and why should I believe your claims and doubt others when *you* doubt claims by other theists just like I do? You claim that your bible is true, however there is no evidence that its essential events happened. If they did not, your claims are worthless, subjective claims that you and you alone have some “truth”.

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      • Yes I claimed that the Bible is true. But your focus stops at written evidence. You know in your heart that is not a completion to the questions. So you turn to the evidence of man; others who call themselves Christians but display no great firmness that you can use for evidence.

        You are not able to hear this but I ask you to trust that it is true. There is a living God on the other side of the written evidence. There is a living God on the other side of the manifestation of those who say they are Christians. It is to the living evidence that I point. The first two evidences are within your grasp because you have eyes and ears. But the third evidence evades you.

        If you desire to move beyond the first two evidences to the proof I am Telling You exists, it is absolutely necessary that you approach the third.

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      • Alas, you again lie about me. No, hiway, my focus doesn’t stop at written evidence. I am a student of the sciences and of archaeology, and I known that you have none of that evidence either. The supposed actions of your god should leave evidence. They have not.

        Your hatred of other Christians is almost as nasty as your hatred of anyone else who shows you are wrong. Again, you have shown yourself to be one of the most untrustworthy people with your false claims about others. There is no reason to trust you, hiway, and that is from your own actions. You have demonstrated that Christianity does not make a person honest and humane.

        There is no reason to believe that there is a god, not on the other side of the written evidence or on the other side of the utter lack of physical evidence.

        There is no “living evidene”, there is only Christians who make claims that their god exists and who cannot agree on what it is or what it wants. No, it is not necessary that I blindly believe you. Again, you contradict your bible. Whom should I believe, you or Jesus Christ?

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      • I see you read Peter’s comment. This is why I called you out. You are a crafty bunch who go about corrupting the faith of my brothers and sisters. For whatever time you were busy with me, you are forced to leave them alone.

        I don’t mind making fun of you at all. I don’t read all your words. At the first sign of a filthy attack my mind simply shuts you out.

        And you are helping me build a display of your despicable hatred for what is true.

        The curtain is rolled back. Come display your practiced trickery. Prove that I did not refer to strawmen.

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      • Corrupting what faith, hiway? Which version of Christianity is the “right” one?

        And spending time with you “forces me to leave them alone”? Nope, it doesn’t. It takes little time to address your baseless claims.

        You were making fun of me? Where? I do know that you mind does close down when anything questioning your baseless claims arises. it’s the only way you can salvage your faith. If closing your eyes and ears is the only way you can remain a Christian, that does speak volumes.

        Please do show where I display any hatred, hiway. I do expect you to, since you do know that lying is a sin. Even if you think the lie will somehow benefit your god (Romans 3). I am more than happy to be your guest atheist.

        I’d be happy to see any evidence you have, as I have said.

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  5. …The visible difference here is that I offer you eternal life in Christ Jesus. The only thing you have to offer is a hopeless useless existence and then, “Poof“! You die and fade away. Christ is very willing to extend eternal life and notoriety to you right now!…

    “Poof!”. You hit the nail on the head. Sooner or later, the curtain falls. But “after a hopeless, useless existence? Who told you so?” Who has the temerity of telling you how I feel about life? Who can somebody possible KNOW?
    And if he, or she, did so, why do you believe such nonsense, why don’t you ask me? Because then I could tell you that the mere AWARENESS of being alive, of my wandering about on this incredible world, makes my existence worthwhile. Why would my happiness as a nonbeliever be less than yours, being a religious person? I think the only difference is that I will die without fear of going to hell – whatever that may be. In fact, this is one of the main reasons why I don’t believe in a good (do you really mean good???) merciful (do you know what mercy is???) god. I refuse to believe nonsense.
    Finally, what other life do you expect? Why does this life end anyway, why doesn’t it just go on and on and on? What makes you think there will be an eternal life?
    What will you tell me when I say that I DO NOT WANT to be part of it? I am quite happy with this existence, with all its ups and downs.
    Greetings.-

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    • Your beef isn’t with me. Its with the one who made you. It’s my honor to tell people about that. Evidently its your pleasure to refuse.

      Since you refuse I have nothing to tell you.

      Why should you be curious about my life in Christ? You don’t want any part of it. The only reason you ask is so that you can ridicule. I’m not going to give you the opportunity. Bibles aren’t expensive. They’re not hard to find. If you want answers search them out yourself.

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    • you seek your own happiness. You do not seek the happiness of the One who made you. That makes your life less.

      I am no one. But the One who sends, is He who makes life worthwhile. He provides all the things you currently enjoy without Him.

      You want mercy from me? You want mercy from God? Then stop glorifying yourself and be willing to understand the message of Christ.

      You will die without hope at all. You will die confident of peace. Then you will, like all of us, appear before the Holy One who made us. That will dispel all peace of willful ignorance in this life.

      You want me to be merciful. You won’t believe in a god who is not merciful. Look how I warn you of what is coming. And I do this at His command. He is mercifully warning you. You consider this offensive. What can be said?

      This life ends because God is Holy. Every person, living in this place of testing, is full of wicked abandon in various degrees. Not one of us can have eternal life here. This place is not the eternal intent of God. He is preparing a place, right now, to receive the ones who humble themselves to accept His Holy Promises.

      If I had not been bold, you would not have seen these words. Do with them as you please. You will gladly accept soft words of praise for Man. But you will not accept the sent Word of the Living God. You’re right. As long as you remain perfectly satisfied to die, who can rectify your understanding.

      I have a question for you. Why do you ask questions? If you’re satisfied with your current life, why question anything at all? Explain that. If we are wrong and you are perfectly right, why not be above worry? Why do we who believe pester your memory and conscience thought? See, you are not at peace as you say.

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    • You ask, why does this life end anyway. Why do you ask? Why does eternity baffle you, yet you gladly except the end of your existence? Who told you to ponder the futility of being able to “taste” life, yet being compelled to lose it? And why do you balk at anyone who says they have the answer?

      It is nonsense that we should “life” now, yet be forced to taste “nonlife”. That is the nonsense. That is void of mercy. That is useless belief. And that you simply accept that as the only possible answer, that is injustice at it’s finest.

      I tell you of hope. But you refuse, gladly accepting defeat as the only reasonable answer. Yet you ask questions, don’t you? Why?

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  6. I find my life one great, wonderful, exciting challenge, so I strongly object to your opinion that “the only thing I have to offer is a hopeless useless existence”.
    That strange fear of yours that I should want to ridicule! Not for one single second has something Iike that ocurred to me. It makes this debate hopeless and useless.
    Thank you for letting me put in my thoughts, and for taking the time to reply.-

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    • You consider your self innocent. It is you who allowed yourself to be offended. But you do not give answer to me. You will give answer to the one who made us both.

      You did not come to extend a hand of friendship. You came to justify yourself. In this way you ridicule the one who made us both. You present yourself as supreme judge of what is true and faultless.

      I tell you that he IS. And I tell you that you are currently giving account of yourself. But by telling me that you were perfectly content to live the life you currently do, by this you ridicule the one I serve.

      You are not innocent. Pride receives offence. Humility seeks knowledge. In this we know a tree by the fruit it bears. Eternity is not shaken because you do not understand or agree.

      I testify as I have been sent to do. Not to testify as one who sends himself. I do not bring you a warning that I contrived on my kitchen table. By His grace I have been sent as a messenger to proclaim what is indelibly established against those would be their own salvation. How that is received is not my concern.

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